The following is a debate I had with Rabbi Ben Chaim a few years ago. Upon re-reading his comment, sadly, I think they are all false, or based on his wishful thinking.
http://www.mesora.org/OralLawVeracity.htm
Oral Law – Refutation of Christianity
Moshe Ben-Chaim
Reader: Now, the points you
raised, I will quote you: “Mesora: Their (the Rabbis) views are rooted in the
Oral Law given AT Sinai.” I say, THEY CLAIM ORAL LAW WAS GIVEN IN SINAI - BUT
THERE IS NO TEXTUAL EVIDENCE OF IT IN THE TORAH!
Mesora: Textual
evidence is not the only valid evidence. A unanimous, verbally transmitted
position that Moses received the Oral Law proves that the Oral Law was in fact
given to Moses at Sinai. If it had not been received, then there would not be a
unanimous position by all Torah leaders.
Reader: You wrote, “The Rabbis -
and no other group - were granted authority over Torah interpretation, as
stated in the Torah.” AGAIN, THIS IS NOT STATED IN THE TORAH. THE CHUMASH MAKES
NO REFERENCE TO "RABBIS", OR TO THEIR INTERPRETATION. IT SIMPLY REFERS TO JUDGES AND COHANIM WHO
SERVE IN HIS CHOSEN PLACE.
Mesora: It most
certainly is, “In accord with the Torah that they teach you, and the statute
they tell you, shall you do, do not veer from the word they tell you – right or
left.” (Deut. 17:11) However, without the Oral Law, you will not understand
“Judges” to refer to the Rabbis. But as I mentioned above, there is no dispute
as to the truth of the transmission of the Oral Law, from G-d to Moses, to the
Elders, Aaron, his sons, and the entire Jewish nation. The Oral law teaches
that this refers to the Rabbis.
Reader: THE MISHNA WAS WRITTEN AROUND THE SAME
TIME AS THE NEW TESTAMENT – SO IT WASN’T GIVEN AT SINAI!
Mesora: The date of writing the Mishna
does not define its date of inception, which was at Sinai.
Reader: BESIDES, IF YOU DON'T THINK THE TORAH IS
COMPLETE, WHY DO YOU ATTEMPT TO QUOTE (OR MISQUOTE) CHAPTER AND VERSE?
Mesora:
The fact that there exists an “Oral Law” does not imply anything is lacking of
the Written Law, as you suggest. The Written Law, Torah (Five Books of Moses)
together with the Oral Law, function as a complete whole. G-d’s intent is that
there be a Written portion, and an Oral portion to Torah. A wise person will
ponder the need for such a unique structure, non-existent in all other
religions.
A Purpose for the Oral Law
The very existence of an oral portion
of Torah, insures - by definition - that in each generation the Torah student
be trained by the Torah scholar. For without this personal training, all a
student has are the texts, but no methodology of study. This is an essential
point to understanding Judaism, its structure, and how is continues to be true
to G-d’s knowledge.
To gain insight into G-d’s wisdom, man
is hopeless without earnest training in thought, which originated in G-d
Himself. This is the Oral Law, the tool for training mankind rational thinking.
G-d’s knowledge is not a simple matter. If you respect the greatness of Maimonides,
Einstein, Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, and Newton, you must agree with the
immense depth found in knowledge, and man’s inability to grasp it all. Man
recognizes that the Source of all this wisdom far exceeds man’s ability to
comprehend. Man stands in awe of this knowledge, and “That” which created it.
These great men certainly did. But not only in “quantity” is G-d’s knowledge
superior to man’s knowledge, but in “quality” too. Knowledge is not achieved as
our society feels, simply by amassing texts, and enlarging one’s memory. G-d’s
knowledge is far to great to be encapsulated in written form, and far superior.
Human intelligence requires training to develop analytical skills to unlock new
knowledge and insights.
Learning what is Unwritten
So how does man tap G-d’s infinite
knowledge, once he completes the limited texts available? The answer is
“thought”. This activity of “thinking” is virtually unknown to the world, save
a few individuals scattered through the generations, like those mentioned. But
it does not have to remain this way, and it won’t upon Messiah’s arrival. Until
then, with training in the proper method of thinking, man can unlock new vaults
of G-d’s knowledge – although not written. The ancient Greek mathematicians
demonstrated this. Without texts, they used intelligence alone, inducing and
deducing proofs, to actually perceive real knowledge that exists “out there”.
Amazing. Such knowledge is so attracting and absorbing, that people like Newton
went for days pondering ideas, so focused and lured in, that others had to
force him to eat! His hunger was not stronger than his desire to remain in his
studies. This proves how enjoyable thought is, and how exciting is the journey
when one anticipates finding new marvels that explain the universe. This is
called “Love of G-d”, as we cannot love what we know not (Him), we can only
love the knowledge He created.
But such a level is impossible, simply
by reading the Torah alone, with no training in thinking…step in, the Oral Law.
This is the design of G-d’s Torah: a
Written portion, and an Oral portion. This Oral Law – Talmud and Mishna – are
the indispensable keys for understanding G-d’s absolute knowledge: truths,
absolute morality, absolute justice, and His formulations. (For example, we
cannot know when it is “just” to kill, if G-d does not tell us His parameters
of who is considered an “evil” person worthy of death. These parameters are
unknown, without the Oral Law.) To secure that G-d’s knowledge be available to
man, G-d formulated the Oral law, which can only be transmitted from teacher to
student, originating with the model of “G-d to Moses” - the first
“Teacher/student” model. This chain of teacher-to-student training, originating
with G-d and flowing down the millennia, guarantees that man is able – even
centuries later – to discover G-d’s knowledge.
The chain of Oral Law imparts G-d’s
knowledge originating with Moses at Sinai, simultaneously training us in
rational thought.
Judaism vs Other Religions
So the Oral Law acts as the only means by
which we can arrive at G-d’s true intent of His cryptic, unknowable Torah. It
also acts as a means of securing the teacher/student union, through which,
every generation has been chained together, linking all the way back to Moses
and G-d. Without the tutelage of a Rabbi, himself trained by his Rabbis; man is
bereft of the indispensable knowledge, which G-d imparted to Moses. He has no
direct link back. Other religions – by definition – have no knowledge of G-d’s
Oral Law. Therefore, their systems are false. But in Judaism alone, with the
Oral Law, we thereby gain absolute knowledge of G-d’s reality, Sinaic
knowledge, and the essential training in thought only provided by Talmudic
analysis. Judaism remains the only religion of G-d, as opposed to man’s fabrication,
seen in Bible critics, Christianity, Islam, and every other man-made religion.
Contrast this perfect Judaism with
other religions who distort G-d’s words, and number two, possess no Oral Law.
The absence of the Oral Law is admission by Christianity and others that they
possess an incomplete, and hence, corrupt system.
Although lengthy, this elaboration is
essential to this topic. I will now return to your questions.
Now, your original question is answered
when one accepts the Rabbis’ authority as mandated by the Torah, and as
expressed by the Talmud. This appears to be your first step, still not
understood by you. I suggest you consider why such great minds like Maimonides
- who was far wiser than us both - was completely convinced that the Oral Law
was a reality, and the Rabbis do in fact have authority directly from G-d. This
is not just the opinion of Maimonides, but of all our Sages. Ask yourself what
compelled such a position, were it not for proof. In all areas, the Rabbis were
brutally honest, admitting ignorance when they were, and speaking with strength
on points as solid and provable as the Earth. They did not conspire to
perpetrate lies. So with patience, dismount from your position long enough to
consider with objectivity, what reasoning was available to convince such great
minds.
Reader: You wrote, “Other
religions have no proof to their ‘prophecies’, just the mere word of one man's
claim to it. Whereas Judaism has Sinai, attended by 2.5 million people.” IF
THIS IS A VALID SCIENTIFIC ARGUMENT, AND I DO NOT BELIEVE IT IS, YOU NEED TO
SHOW THAT THE 2.5 MILLION PEOPLE RECEIVED THE ORAL LAW ON SINAI, AND ACCURATELY
PASSED IT FROM EACH GENERATION TO THE NEXT.
DO YOU HAVE INDEPENDENT CONTEMPORARY EVIDENCE TO PROVE THIS? DOES IT
APPEAR IN THE TORAH, PROPHETS AND WRITINGS?
Mesora:
As we discussed here many times, the account of Sinai would not have been
accepted and spread as is evident, had it never occurred. Nothing more is
required to prove this history, or any other history.
Your requirement for “independent
contemporary evidence” is an internally flawed request: this position claims
that a single, historical account – even if held by millions of people – is
insufficient evidence for the history it claims. So what IS sufficient for your
standards? You suggest additional accounts from independent sources. However,
what would these “independent sources” add, other than numbers of people? You
assume other countries possessing the story of Sinai are greater proof than the
Jews’ possession alone. But what is the new factor you say exists, once other
sources claim Sinai’s truth? The fact it may be accepted in other lands only
shows that the account spread, but nothing else qualitatively. You might retort
that “objectivity” is now evident; offering greater proof, as other countries
have no personal interest in claiming G-d appeared to the Jews. To this, I
respond that the Jews as a country would not unanimously lie, for a common
motive cannot be found in millions of people. (“Motive”, by its very
definition, is a subjective phenomenon.) Certainly, the “real” Jewish history
would have surfaced, had there been one. In the absence of any other Jewish
history, and the unanimous world acceptance of Sinai, Sinai is proven. (You
also have ignored the Christian world’s acceptance.)
Regarding mentions in Prophets of
Moses’ Torah revealed at Sinai, you will find them.
Reader: THE FIRST WRITTEN
EVIDENCE FOR ORAL LAW IS ABOUT 1000 YEARS AFTER THIS. IN JOSIAH'S TIME, THE
WRITTEN TORAH WAS LOST (THANKS TO MENASSEH) AND IT WAS UNKNOWN IN ISRAEL. HOW, THEN DID THE ORAL LAW SURVIVE? IN
EZRA'S TIME, THE PEOPLE I ISRAEL WERE UNAWARE OF EITHER LAW. PLUS, EZRA READ
FROM THE SCRIPTURE, BUT THER IS NO MENTION OF AN ORAL LAW!
Mesora:
Incorrect. The Rabbis unanimously agree that Moses received the Oral Law on
Sinai. Perhaps many Jews were ignorant of the Written and Oral Torah, but
neither was ever lost. The Prophets constantly rebuke the people to abide by
“Toras Moshe”, “Moses’ law”. Rashi, Ibn Ezra and all other Torah leaders knew
that the Oral Law was never lost.
I believe your problem is that you commenced your inquiry
from the wrong starting point: instead of starting from a position that there
was no Oral Law, (which from your words has no basis) you should question what
convinced these great minds otherwise. The fact is that generation after
generation, the Torah leaders verbally communicated truths. One of these truths
is the event at Sinai, and the body of knowledge passed down from Moses to the
Elders, to Joshua, Aaron, his sons, and the Jewish nation. Read the
introduction to Pirkei Avos for the history of the Torah’s dissemination. Base
yourself on facts, not your own supposition.
Reader: You wrote, “G-d promised
in the Torah and through prophets to never alter the Torah.” BUT THE RABBIS
FELT THEY WERE ABOVE THIS, AND ADDED NEW LAWS!
Mesora:
You project your own emotional notions onto people who were far superior in
character than you or I. Don’t assume their motives are like ours, that they
felt “above” matters and acted in such a way. Also, your knowledge of Jewish
Law is severely lacking. You must study the Talmud on this issue, and you will
see how G-d demanded the Rabbis interpret the laws, and construct fences – not
new laws – to protect the Torah system. Had you studied, you could not have
made such a statement.
Reader: Well, that was certainly
a good dialog. I thank you for taking the time to compose this and to sort thru
our correspondence. I shall also endeavor to take your challenge and look at
things from different angles.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some of his arguments are purely circular arguments, e.g. "“In accord with the Torah that they teach you, and the statute
they tell you, shall you do, do not veer from the word they tell you – right or
left.” (Deut. 17:11) However, without the Oral Law, you will not understand
“Judges” to refer to the Rabbis."
Without the Oral law we will not understand that it refers to the Rabbis! But it refers to the Priests (Sadducees) and the Judge who was a Shofet. Without the Koran, we would not "know" (or be brainwashed into thinking) that Mohammed was the last prophet and the Koran is the perfect revelation from God! What clever argumentation.
Another silly statement "The Rabbis unanimously agree that Moses received the Oral Law on
Sinai. Perhaps many Jews were ignorant of the Written and Oral Torah, but
neither was ever lost. The Prophets constantly rebuke the people to abide by
“Toras Moshe”, “Moses’ law”. Rashi, Ibn Ezra and all other Torah leaders knew
that the Oral Law was never lost"
The rabbis agreeing that their own beliefs are true do not make their beliefs true. The atheists unanimously agree that there is no God. does that make such claim true? The Christians unanimously agree that Jesus was the Messiah. Must we therefore consider him to be the messiah? Furthermore, the Priests who were hated by the rabbis unanimously agreed that the oral law was a big lie. Since the Torah (which he even quotes himself here) says we must listen to the Priest, doesn't that mean we must reject the oral law?